New Voices is an event series presenting the work of the photographers who are part of the 2021-2023 VII Mentor Program and The Leica Women Foto Project x VII Mentor Program. The VII Mentor Program is made up of thirteen gifted young photographers with diverse experiences who were chosen from nearly 300 applicants from 65 countries.
In this event series, hosted by David Campbell and Ilvy Njiokiktjien, showcases the stories the photographers are working on and discusses how they are creating a viable career in visual journalism.
David Campbell: So, Natalia, just to begin, you’re from Peru originally. Tell us a little bit about how you got into photography and how you ended up in New York.
Natalia Neuhaus: Okay. So, I was studying marketing in college in Peru. And then I took a photo class at college. And I was like, okay, I think photo and journalism is more of my calling. So, then I was working a lot. And I was like, I couldn’t afford college there. And I had a green card. And I was like, okay, I’ll come to the US and finish my degree. And then I met my wife. She’s from Connecticut. So, then we both came here because I also have family here. So, that’s the, that’s the contents.
David Campbell: And when you say you went to college, you went to ICP.
Natalia Neuhaus: I went to the San Francisco Art Institute in San Francisco. And then here, I was, like, okay, I tried many things. And then I applied to the Bard program. I didn’t get in, but at ICP, they were like, you might be interested in the photo documentary program. And they just—and then they were like, oh, you’re in and then like, they gave a good scholarship, so I was able to go, and then. And then I started reconnecting again. Because it’s like, when you’re from another country, then you go to San Francisco, and then like, you move like, it’s a lot of moving, so you’re not able to make connections. So, ICP helped me kind of like restart making connections. And then they, I saw at ICP too that Donna Ferrato needed an assistant. So, I started working for her on her last book. And then I started, I hadn’t photographed in a long time until ICP, and then I started photographing again. And then I stopped working for Donna and I worked for another photographer. And I was also working in the darkroom in ICP. So, just like part of me doesn’t want to work commercial things. And I don’t like, you know, I like to keep things separate from photography. So, I prefer to do like other things that are not working with my camera. Unless it’s like personal. Yeah.
David Campbell: How do you how do you feel that growing up in Peru influences your photography? Does it influence your photography? Do you think that gives you a particular view or gaze that would be different from some of your colleagues in the US?
Natalia Neuhaus: That’s a very good question. I think it was like growing up, my father was very violent, abusive, so we never knew how he was going to come home or what mood so, I think that kind of taught me always to, like, be on the lookout. You know, so, I feel that that translates in my work, on the way I see. So, I’m giving you like glimpses, you know, and it’s not intentional, it’s just like something that I grew up with. So, like having this, having to look over your shoulder.
David Campbell: Feeling insecure, I guess, feeling—
Natalia Neuhaus: Oh, I mean, yeah, like he would commonly start screaming, it was like, like, so everyone will like, leave. But then like, if the house was quiet, they will be like, opening the door and like, and there was a lot of mirrors in my work because I would use mirrors to see if he was around like, you know. So—
David Campbell: That personal experience has really directly influenced your photography,
Natalia Neuhaus: I think, yeah. And always kind of like, I would like stand up for my mom. And I was like, I have this feeling that I always have to fight for the person— not the oppressed, but the person who cannot fight for themselves. You know. And I feel like at ICP, I did like, Baby Boomers aging alone. Kind of like people that don’t have a voice, or are like, ostracized for being different, you know, like my sex work project. So, it’s like, there’s these pieces in me that like, kind of like, I don’t know, move me to photography.
David Campbell: Tell us a bit about how you came to select the topics that you worked on the burlesque, the sex workers, etc. What was informing that decision?
Natalia Neuhaus: Kind of like that’s part of the growing up in Peru. Like, I grew up like, you know, very conservative. Didn’t know any gay people, never seen any drag, you know, then of course, I’m gay. So, it’s like, so many things you keep, you know, hidden and like, you grew up with this idea of what people are because you see movies, you know, media, like stereotypes. Like, so you’re, how do you untangle this, you know, and I think moving to San Francisco was a great decision to expand my mind to what I was brought up to think, you know, so like, it was like, you know, there is a Folsom Street Fair, I don’t know, if you’re familiar. It’s like an SM fair on the street, like, it’s just open to the public. So, it’s like, you know, you start experiencing things that you will have never seen. And you’re like, okay, you know, this people like this, like, you learn to respect, you know, that everyone has their kink. You know, we all have, like, you know, I like—, my wife is, like, completely—so, we all have, you know, our kinks that makes us who we are. And it’s, like, burlesque, teaches you to embrace that, you know, like, it’s a celebration of like, who you are, you know, who you want to be whatever you want to do, as long as you’re not a murdering and hurting. You know, it’s—
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: So, I have a question with the stories you work on, because most of them are quite sensitive subjects. I mean, in a way, where you would probably, I’m guessing, you have a hard time sometimes getting in to taking pictures in these kinds of places. It’s all about trust, or yeah, that’s what I’m curious about. It almost looks like you don’t have any trouble getting in. But it’s also the kinds of stories that are not the easiest, I guess.
Natalia Neuhaus: It’s well, I mean, what I do is like, I meet with people first, and I, like more or less, I met a few, and I was like, hey, you know, I’m super curious about this. Like, how do you get ready? Like it started out much more of a documentary. And then I just became friends with everyone I photographed. Like, it became like a family album. And then like, it’s, say, I know who’s hosting the show. And I know who’s going to be there. So, it really feels like, you know, like church kind of so it’s like I don’t have to pick up, you know, text anyone, I just go and it’s always something new. So, you never know what you’re — it’s always like, there’s always a voice to the act like apart from being, there’s always like a protest or a point of view. You know, woman rights, I know someone that does like, suffragette act. So, there’s, there’s always been something political about burlesque, is not just entertain entertainment. And then like, then sex work. I wanted to work on sex work for a really long time. But I wanted to be able to like, work on my own judgment. So, I read books, I listened to podcasts of sex workers. And then like, and I met sex workers just living here. And like, I was like, oh, I would have never guessed that this person is a sex worker. And I was like, Okay, I’m sure I’m not the only one that will be this stereotype that they have in my mind. So, I want to help people change their view on like, what sex work is, or like, sex work, as a calling, that’s what I’m calling my new project. You know? It’s like, how long has sex work been around, like, and we’re still judging it. And like, many of the women that I photograph, and talk is like, yeah, they come to me, we talk like, there’s a lot of people that are finding their gender, and they want to explore that. So, it’s like, it’s not like only, you know, this, where you blow off steam. There is a much deeper meaning like, say, like the SM doms. I feel like men that go to see doms like they want to be able to, some men have so much power that they want to be able to feel what the other side feels. So, they want to be dominated. And it’s the only way that they can see the other side.
David Campbell: Natalia, so why don’t you share the screen and show your work and then talk through some of this as we’re having the conversation.
Netalia Neuhaus: So, this is my new work of sex workers. And this started, like, I made like a little PDF. And I wrote what I thought sex work was and I started reaching out to sex workers that I found online. You know, every morning I will wake up and try to find someone that I think was interested. So, I every, like I will email like, maybe like 20 people and I will get like two responses. So there’s a lot of background for FaceTime. And then we finally meet, and it was just like, beautiful. My most intense photos with someone have been in sex work.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: What were the reasons for them to join the project?
Natalia Neuhaus: Because they believe that it shouldn’t be taboo. It should be something open. It’s not only sex, it’s much more than that.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: It’s amazing to see this work. It’s beautiful first of all, but I love the fact that it’s not all—what’s it called? Anonymous. That you see faces because it’s a subject that a lot of times is portrayed without—
Natalia Neuhaus: —don’t want to show their faces.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, I love it. Like—
Natalia Neuhaus: They do it, like they’re proud of what they do, you know. They’re always posting like, oh, this person needs help, let’s, you know, it’s only two communities I’ve seen that support each other a lot, it’s burlesque and sex work.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Wow. That’s beautiful. So, this is all New York. Or is this—
Natalia Neuhaus: Yeah, if I had that grant, then—Monday used to be a nurse and like, she couldn’t afford to— she has two kids, and she couldn’t afford to survive, you know, so she just became a dom. And now she has two apartments and it’s like things, you know, and she’s proud. Like, why should she be ashamed? It’s us, like it’s in our upbringing, you know?
Natalia Neuhaus: Feisty is a wrestler.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: A wrestler.
Natalia Neuhaus: Yeah.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Wow.
Natalia Neuhaus: Some guys want to be wrestled.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Ah, I see. Amazing.
Natalia Neuhaus: And she tours the country in an RV.
Natalia Neuhaus: And Judy is a Tantra healer.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: What did you say? Sorry, say again?
Natalia Neuhaus: Judy. And she’s a Tantra healer.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: I see.
Natalia Neuhaus: And she’s been doing this for 50 years. And so—
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: It’s nice that you have such a huge diversity as well in people.
Natalia Neuhaus: And that’s it.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Very beautiful. How long have you worked on this?
Natalia Neuhaus: Like two years and a half?
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Straight through the pandemic I’m guessing.
Natalia Neuhaus: I started in 2021. Yeah, the first one was, I think at the end of 2021. And it was someone that does stripping. And like, I think at the beginning, my mask, going to places you know, so it was like, very, a lot of outdoors. And then like now it’s like, more easy to, you know, to meet someone indoors. There is a risk, but—
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, but it’s nice that it’s possible again, right. And now with this story, where would you like, would you like to see this published? And if so, where? Or what do you want to do with it?
Natalia Neuhaus: I want to see it published here. And I’ve tried, but I haven’t gotten any answers. Why publish here? Because for me at the end it is not about me, but it’s about telling the stories of the people I photograph. That’s my main—and so like, somebody was like, oh, there’s these magazines. You can put the story here. I’m like, Yeah, but I’m preaching to the choir like this. You know, it’s not like I’m going to change anyone’s view on sex work. Or like, you know, so it’s like, I want the people in the world to experience what I experienced. Oh, this is, you know, this college person decides to sex work for a living. And it’s like, how, if I put it like on very, sex work, not like it’s not you know, so, I try but I feel like newspapers here prioritize violence or like, I don’t—
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, more newsy—
Natalia Neuhaus: Murder, you know. And sex, it just feels so taboo. Like, you know, like there’s don’t show nudity. But we can see blood. No blood is alright.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: I wonder. I think that’s, I don’t know about in America, but here that’s changing quite rapidly. I think a story like that, I think it’s a shame that it’s so difficult to get published, it will be really nice. I know, I mean, as a photographer, I know how frustrating it is not to get any answer.
Natalia Neuhaus: I mean, it hurts you, you know, but then you realize this is really not about me, I just have to keep on pushing, because this woman trusted me with her story. So, you just have to, like keep pushing to see that it comes out.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: So, earlier on, you said that you would rather than instead of working in the photography field and doing the kinds of assignments you don’t want to do, you would rather do something else, right, like working in the lab—
Natalia Neuhaus: In the darkroom. Like, because I met other photographers that work for The New York Times and have a lot of assignments, Washington Post, and we talk and they were like, Yeah, I wish I could focus on my long-term projects. And it’s like, there is a lot of give and take, you know, we both we struggle, yes, I probably don’t make much money, as you know they’re doing. But they also don’t have the time to be working on their long-term projects. So, it’s like, that’s life, we always have to, like, try to find a balance. My balance is just not making much money. And just like focusing on the work.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: So, how has that been for you? I’m curious. I mean, in recent years, it’s been going quite well with my work and pitching it. And then usually someone will luckily, happily, and I’m very happy about it, buy it. But there were a couple of years where it was very difficult. And almost seemed like whatever I touched, whatever project it was, like, not getting replies. And it was, I don’t know, I started to doubt this field almost. What has it been like for you? You started out and—
Natalia Neuhaus: Every day, every day.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: How are your spirits, like—
Natalia Neuhaus: Imposter. Imposter syndrome. Yeah. Like we all have impostor syndrome. And it’s like, what am I doing? Am I, but then you get something like the mentorship or like, you know, run this workshop with my name. So like, things like that, you know, like, and then like, I pitched a burlesque story and the next day was like, I love it. I want to publish it. Yeah, of course they don’t pay. It wasn’t a good platform, you know, for everyone I photograph to see themselves. So, that kind of like validates you that you’re doing something right. Yeah, but yeah, most of the time it is a struggle. Two months ago, my dog died, then I pitch everyone my story. Nobody responded. So, yeah, you will feel really low. And you have to have a community. For me it’s like I go to a burlesque show and immediately like, I try to go to the gym regularly. So, it’s like keeping a discipline that helps you manage these lows.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, I think it’s also good what you mentioned just now but also before we actually went live is that the grass is not always greener. It’s so true. You see stories being published and you think, ah, I want that. And then at the same time you, I don’t know, somehow in those years where it was difficult to get stories published, those were the years where I took the best pictures to be honest. Because you want to really try harder, harder, harder. I don’t know.
Natalia Neuhaus: Well, you’re connected. Yeah. And kind of like, the noes push me to go farther, you know, to be able to build it more, to make it more diverse. Like, I think like, I’m very conscious about like because burlesque is very diverse. And I’m sure sex work is, I’m sure it’s the same, like, you know, we have everything. So, it’s like, we cannot only focus on one, the world is not only one so, we have to open up. So, you want to, we strive to be better. Like, you know, at least for me, like, yes, I’m very low, I’ve been very low. And then when I’m out it is like, okay, push again. Yeah.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: I think in general photography is a good therapy like that in many ways to be shooting, I don’t know, it gives you energy, even though when editors don’t reply, it kind of takes the energy again, but working on stories really gives energy. So where— Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Natalia Neuhaus: Sometimes, like when you come back after a shoot, and you see the photos you took, and you’re like, oh, wow, you know, like, and that also validates you, but you also want the world to see. So, it’s always a push.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, but it’s true. But it’s also true for most of us. I mean, this story is very true. So, where would you see yourself, let’s say, or hope to see yourself in five or 10 years? Oh.
Natalia Neuhaus: I think by now, I’m like a New Yorker. My heart is here. So, I would like to do like a MFA or something. But I’ve learned not to like, I’m a Gemini, so I tend to be very scattered. I learned to focus on one or two things. So, for me right now is, do burlesque work, then sex work. And maybe after that, apply to grad school. And I would love to teach. Like, teach and do my long-term project work.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: That’s a good combination, I think.
Natalia Neuhaus: That’s what I see. Yes, maybe a few grants hopefully. That would definitely help.
David Campbell: Ilvy, just going back to the point you were making about you know, when you have a tough period and so on. How did you get through that? And what was the turning point for you?
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: The turning point, like in not getting assignments?
David Campbell: Yeah.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Well, it wasn’t—my turning point was more of or my problem was more the fact that I was getting assignments that didn’t match me so well. I was taking them because it makes money too. And I needed money. So, I guess my turning point kind of started when I realized, okay, you should start saying stop to assignments that are not are not part of what you want to do. So, that that helped. And for me, to be honest, it’s already 10 years ago, but winning an award at the World Press was a total turning point for me because before that, a lot of my work when I was pitching it was ending up— I always think it just ended up in either the spam box or junk filter, was it called, like the or just deleted by editors. I don’t know, but it never I never ever got a reply. And then after World Press that that really changed. So, that was also a major turning point.
David Campbell: Some sort of industry recognition, validation.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, that really helps or like getting a grant like Natalia or the mentorship program, things like that. I think the mentorship program is probably in a way similar to the Joop Swart Masterclass that World Press has, in a way. It kind of puts your name on the, out there. Yeah. Yeah.
Natalia Neuhaus: They like say, also, like, in style, I think it’s difficult to have a style that feeds news, newspapers here have a very particular style. And like, if you don’t have that style, it doesn’t fit the line here. Like, right now I’m seeing like, everything is very matte.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Very what?
Natalia Neuhaus: Matte.
David Campbell: Flash. Yeah, yeah.
Natalia Neuhaus: And flash.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah.
Natalia Neuhaus: It’s like, either or, you know, and I feel like, editors forget that photography is like a voice. And like, each photographer should have— I mean, not everyone will have it. But like, everyone should have their own style that translates different. And I feel like, when you see these similar projects, you become immune to.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, that’s true.
Natalia Neuhaus: It’s a responsibility.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: I do feel now with social media, that’s changing, not quickly, but it’s changing. I have the feeling that because people are sharing their work. I don’t know, I have the feeling it’s becoming more diverse lately. You see the kinds of images that we weren’t seeing before, all of a sudden, some of these major magazines are using images that I don’t think they would have five years ago. But newspapers? Yeah.
Natalia Neuhaus: It’s still like, you know, and I feel like, what, for me, like, when I see a photograph that wows me, like, it stays, you know, but it’s like eating every day the same food.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah. Yeah,
Natalia Neuhaus: We don’t do it, you know, and, and I don’t know why they become so entrenched in this formula. It doesn’t work.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: I think. I don’t know. I’m not a— I think there’s with the major newspapers and magazines, there’s a lot of pressure from top down to editors who might have come in very, like, young and new visions. And then they learn to kind of, exactly, yeah, and they have to adjust to kind of make it work because the visual voice is, I guess most of the time, it’s the visual voice of the head of photography, or you know, from— Yeah, you have to be very brave as an editor to also kind of push against that and to all of a sudden use a total different kind of photography or yeah, so.
Natalia Neuhaus: But I feel like that it kind of has watered down the photography that could be much more impactful. At least, you know.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: I agree. I agree. It’s all quite similar.
David Campbell: So, just a reminder to folks in the audience if you want to ask a question, drop it into the chat or q&a. Ilvy, maybe you want to read that Donna comment.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Donna. Donna Ferrato says when I was starting out, and no one would publish my work, Philip Jones Griffiths would encourage me not to feel defeated. He would say most of the photo community is incapable of seeing the value in work that is totally sincere, as well as provocative. Don’t worry, your day will come. Very true. Great. I began to see how the photo community often takes the ideas of others so it’s better to work anonymously for as long as you can until you are ready to show your work. That is what I try to impress on the photographers I mentor, not to rush to show their work in public until they are ready to go public. Also, it protects you from other photographers copying you. It’s important to work hard in secrecy. Yeah, I love that. You didn’t need to get acceptance from editors or other photographers, you needed to do the work.
Natalia Neuhaus: Yep.
David Campbell: Well, I think it’s really interesting, Ilvy, your comments and Natalia, your comments from the outside as a non-photographer, I mean, both of you have made very, have had to make very brave decisions, I mean, for you, Ilvy, to say no to a series of assignments that would pay you, but what you worked out, they were not a good fit and Natalia for you to say, I’m going to focus on this long term work. And then I’m going to do some other things to fund that. I mean, both of those, you have to be quite brave to make that decision, in the sense of confident in yourself and confident that this is really what you want to do.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Beautiful. And true.
Natalia Neuhaus: It’s, I think, like, it’s about the people we photograph. And, like, the trust that they put, so it’s like you have this mission to accomplish, you know, that goes beyond you. Like, it stops being about us or like, you know, I see many photographer posting, oh, my work is out there a lot, but they forget that it’s about who they photograph or, you know, or if it was climate change, or like, you know, and yes, there is a lot of ego, you know, and like, I feel like, it’s good when we detach from the ego. Like, and we have to think like, yeah, like, it’s our voice, but we’re collaborating with someone.
David Campbell: But I think linking to Donna’s comment, you know, that, you know, if you do the work, and it’s done in that way that you’ve described as being authentic and committed to something, your time will come. But that takes a lot of courage when you need to pay the bills to wait for your time to come. You know,
Natalia Neuhaus: It takes a lot of time.
David Campbell: It takes time.
Natalia Neuhaus: That’s why community, having people to talk to. I found that, like, I talk with Donna, I talk with some in the mentorship. We vent, but good to have like, a schedule, exercise, eat healthy, sleep.
David Campbell: It’s true.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: I’m laughing because it’s so true. It’s so important.
David Campbell: Yeah, true.
Natalia Neuhaus: Like, I’m 42 I’m not, not in my 20s, not in my 30s. You have to find a balance like, you know, different parts of my life.
David Campbell: Natalia, After the work on sex work, after the work on Burlesque, do you have any ideas or dreams about what you would do as a project beyond those things, a different topic?
Natalia Neuhaus: I think that themes show, happen organically. So, I just keep my brain open. Who knows what will happen to like, you know, so many things, like maybe Trump will come back. You know, DeSantis, maybe they will take back gay marriage. You know, they did that wave of origin already. So, it won’t be a surprise. So, it’s not, depends on the time. Let’s see what happens.
David Campbell: Yeah, there are a lot of potential struggles ahead.
Natalia Neuhaus: Yes. I see two hands.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah. Wait. Stephanie McGovern says it’s just a matter of when not if. Not sure what it refers back to.
David Campbell: I think that if you’re doing the work, then it’s a matter of—
Natalia Neuhaus: It will eventually.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, and Ted says saying no reminds me of Joe McNally being offered a great gig by Sports Illustrated to shoot the Olympic Games with a generous day rate over a period of weeks. He said no. He chose to go on a speaking tour not paid but an editor from Nat Geo was part of the tour. Joe had his eyes had his eye on long term for his career. It worked out for Joe. And by the way, Sports Illustrated did not offer him work again for many, many years for saying no. Yeah.
David Campbell: Again, it’s the courage to say no in those moments, when yes would be the easier option.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah. It’s very, in this industry it’s very scary to say no, yeah, we’ll go with that when something comes in. And you know, it’s not going to help you but only financially. That’s why I really liked Natalia that you said, if you do take jobs, you would rather have them not with a camera. If they are mean, if they are not in your line of, I think that’s very smart.
Natalia Neuhaus: I actually really liked working at the ICP Darkroom. That really was fun.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Exactly. Yeah, no, I can imagine.
Natalia Neuhaus: You meet a lot of people.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Good for the connections too.
David Campbell: So, we’re coming towards the end of our time, but we still if anyone wants to ask a question, if you’ve pressed the raise hand button, we can’t do much with that. But if that means you want to ask a question, type the question into chat or q&a. And then we can bring that question in. So, we still have time for one or two if you want to do that.
Natalia Neuhaus: Donna has and—has questions. Maybe they can type it.
David Campbell: Yeah.
David Campbell: So, a comment from Maria, Ilvy if you can read that.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, I’m looking—oh wait. It was moved. Very sorry. Maria, says, Natalia, I love your images on the sex workers because it explores not only life but highlights something deeper in life. It’s important, dazzling, and emotional.
Natalia Neuhaus: Thank you. It’s human, you know.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah. And this extra layer where you are showing human instead of what’s what’s the word like a stereotype that people have in their minds. I think that’s beautiful. They’re beautiful.
Natalia Neuhaus: Like if you photograph doctors in their homes. You don’t photograph them with their coat.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Exactly. Yeah. So true.
David Campbell: Yeah, that would be the stereotype. That would be a stock photograph at that point.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Exactly. There’s a question. No, Jamie says, but you do the work regardless, you have to stay true to your vision. I have taught and worked in a bookstore, driven a cab. You do the work. Yes. Totally.
Natalia Neuhaus: Slow, but steady. So, like the Italians say, piano piano va lontano.
David Campbell: Yes.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: It’s slow, slow and then, or is it piano, piano?
Natalia Neuhaus: And you go far.
David Campbell: Ah, yeah. Slow, slow. And you go far. Yeah.
Natalia Neuhaus: In Spanish is a turtle pace.
David Campbell: I’m feeling better about a lot of things now. Turtle is the way to go.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Like a pep talk, this one.
David Campbell: Exactly. I think we’ve covered all our questions. So, last call for a question from the audience if you want to raise one. Want to raise one?
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: And it’s really nice to see people in the chat that we often have viewing these meetings. Lovely to see people are so yeah, coming back to this. It’s beautiful. So, thanks for everyone being here. Any last question?
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Sorry.
Natalia Neuhaus: No. Nice try.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Nice try.
David Campbell: So, Natalia, thank you very much for joining us today. It’s been really good to see those images. But most importantly, to hear kind of your journey to making those images and the purpose, and the story. I think it’s been extraordinarily powerful. And I think a lot of people have a lot to learn from it.
Natalia Neuhaus: It’s my first, my first interview like this.
David Campbell: On the basis of this won’t be your last.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Thanks so much.
David Campbell: Thank you very much. Take care.
Natalia Neuhaus: Thank you.
David Campbell: Thank you for everyone in the audience who joined, and we’ll have a recording of this up on site before too long. Thanks, everybody.
Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Thank you, Natalia.
Natalia Neuhaus: Thank you.
David Campbell: Bye
Natalia Neuhaus: Bye
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Ilvy Njiokiktjien, Natalia Neuhaus, David Campbell