Photo Editors Series – Angelika Hala and Andreas Trampe

The Photo Editors Series are conversations with well-known photo editors about how they view the media today, the role of visuals in reporting, the work they like to see, and advice for photographers on how best to connect with publishers.

In this event, hosted by David Campbell and Ilvy Njiokiktjien, the series will combine an overview of the contemporary media landscape with practical tips. The editors in the series will speak as individuals rather than representatives of their organizations, and the event will be interactive with good opportunities for audience questions.

In this seventh episode, we speak with Angelika Hala and Andreas Trampe from Stern in Germany.



David Campbell: Great. So, we’re gonna have a conversation going through some of the questions that we usually go through in the photo editor series. So, this time with two people chiming in from Stern, but Angelica, if I can start with you, can you say a little bit about your current position and the path that you took to be an editor with Stern.


Angelika Hala: I started with Stern as a photo editor in 1997. And had come to the United States in 89. Education in publishing business and several years working in radio and television production. I came back to the United States, I started working back in publishing this time on the editorial side, worked freelance for different magazines, magazine groups, all German magazines, until I got the position at Stern. And I stayed with the magazine since because it is never getting boring. And our office consists of myself, one or two reporters at a time, a researcher and some freelance journalists. I work on assignments in the United States, South and Central America and Canada. Mostly, that’s my territory. I license content for Stern, do research. Stern and the sister magazines—and special editions. And I source photographers, new talent from mostly the Americas.


David Campbell: And Andreas, you’ve been with Stern, most, if not all, your career, is that correct? In various—


Andreas Trampe: I fear so.


David Campbell: Tell us a bit about your current position and the major responsibilities there.


Andreas Trampe: Yeah, I joined Stern one year earlier than Angelica in 1996. So, it’s really, it’s a long, long time. And I started as a deputy director of photography. And three years later, I became the director of photography for 19 years or so. So, during this long period, I had a lot of art directors and editors in chief who came in and gone out. And so, it’s my ninth editor-in-chief right now. And the eighth one, the former editor-in-chief, he doesn’t want to work with me any longer as a director of photography. And so, I’m a senior picture editor, a normal picture editor, and doing a normal picture editor job. And after a short shock, I found out that it is really nice. I can work more intensive on stories and with photographers. And I don’t have to do all these organization stuff, which director of photography has to do. And so, it’s for me, it’s still a good magazine. And it’s still fun to work for Stern. And if you see the German market, we don’t have so many magazines, which are so strong and visually strong. We have we have a few, but Stern, for us and for me, it was still the best choice.


David Campbell: And do you both work together? Do you coordinate together in any particular way? If so, how does that operate between Germany and the US?


Andreas Trampe: Yeah. Angelika is responsible for—yeah, this is unbelievable, she’s responsible for North America, and she works with South America and Alaska. And so, the whole American region and of course we are working, we are working together. And also, because of the time difference, sometimes it’s very, very, very good that we can hand over a story to Angelika. And then she proceeds with the story or or with the research, for example. And yeah, and it makes sense, of course that, for example, I will assign a photographer in Munich. But Angelika, of course, will assign a photographer in Chicago or Detroit. She knows much better her market. And but Angelika, what? What do you think about that?


Angelika Hala: Yeah, we do overlap. There are some, some features that I worked pretty much on my own. When we produce a feature with the reporter here in the United States. That’s something where I will be on location or do it from the office, depending on what it is. But there are, like, articles where I contribute photography and it is mostly handled by the photo editor in Hamburg. And let’s say it’s a story that concerns Ukraine, where perhaps there is some, there are certain persons that I need to source headshots of, very simple photography, licensing, and Andreas would be the main photo editor for that story, and I would be working, more or less helping him to source the materials. So, it depends a bit on the story that we are working on. Some of the issues can be almost like they are parallel with each other. Some I might jump in, as like, let’s say there’s something in Australia, with a time shift—when we jump in together. So, it varies. But in terms of planning and conferences, let’s see, because I’m alone here, I need the feedback with colleagues in Hamburg, sometimes by selecting the proper photographer for a story and get a stylistic input. That’s when I reach out. And you certainly have your favorite colleagues that you know, you can bounce ideas and check in if you need a head check for something.


David Campbell: Does Stern have offices, editors in other locations other than the Europe, Germany, the US, any other global locations.


Andreas Trampe: We had a lot of offices around the world. But over the years, we closed several of these offices. We have still an editor and an office in London. And we have, as we call it laptop offices in a way. So, it’s not real offices, but it’s colleagues who will go for certain time to places which we find very interesting. For example, we now have somebody in Istanbul right now. And then it’s easier to close it and to ask this person to move to another spot where maybe we have more interesting stories for the moment, because we are also always based on the news, on the current news. So, we are not a news magazine. So, the webpage is news. But a lot of stories we are doing are located, related to the news. Yeah, yeah.


David Campbell: I mean, it’s interesting that both of you have had very long careers at Stern, so very stable and consistent in a time when the media has been completely transformed. Lots of radical changes and so on. How would you characterize the last couple of decades? What do you think the major changes are? How would you talk about the kind of state of the visual media today? Angelika?


Angelika Hala: My work has completely changed. I work mostly looking at a computer screen. That’s pretty much it. I got to source everything on my own. Every agency, photograph, every research where I used to call around and have dozens of photo agencies that I could call up and and get help, and people who were highly educated in their own agency material archives, and you would pull exceptional photography. That doesn’t mean photography as diminished, but our resources have shrunken too. Some major photo agencies that you pretty much have to go to unless, yeah, you can’t find. But what I’ve found mostly troubling lately is that there are a lot of free or low-price stock agencies, where you can actually find pretty good photography by laypeople. And it’s, unfortunately, we have to go to those resources as well, because at times you can’t source it from any professional photographer. Because, and that’s the other more troubling thing is the, at least for my territory, I have seen a reduction in assignments. We used to photograph every person we interviewed, pretty much. So, I had a lot of portrait assignments, even if they were just small, and the image just ended up on a stamp size place in the magazine, but we would still produce it. And those are photographs that often now are done by the reporters on their iPhones, sadly enough, and the assignment times are often also reduced. However, and the good part is, when I get assignments, they are the longer period ones. So, I do more big assignments than I used to do instead of many smaller ones. That’s my quick, top of the head impression.


David Campbell: Yeah. Interesting. Andreas. What are your impressions? How would you characterize it?


Andreas Trampe: Yeah, you asked for what is the big change during this long period in a way. So, I’m an old man in a way. And I know the times when we didn’t have mobile phones, and no computers. And we had dark rooms and—all these weird things in the old times, which were not always good times, to say so. And now, of course, the modern technology and the digital world changed everything. So, our business is running faster and faster. And more international, and that’s also good. It’s not that I’m I say that is bad. That’s a good development. Because if you see if we have a story about the Brazilian elections, Lula and Bolsonaro, which we had last month, then we of course, will assign a Brazilian photographer, and 30 years ago, we would send somebody from Germany to Brazil, because we didn’t know these photographers in Brazil. Now, everybody, it’s very easy to connect to these international photographers. And you have all the web pages so you can get an idea which pictures, skills or which what picture stories the photographer has, so what kind of pictures or reportage pictures he or she is is shooting and that makes our life of course much easier because it’s a big advantage to have somebody from a local country or local city because he or she knows everybody there in question to get access to politicians or to economics of the economy. And we don’t have this language problem as German magazine we have also a big language problem sometimes when we send somebody to Africa, for example. And you always need then stringers on the ground, of course you need stringers, and that makes it a little bit more expensive and slower. And so, for us it’s also really, really good that this digital change changed our job totally but Angelica is right we are looking at the whole day on computer screen. That is not so nice as it was before and these let’s say good old days, which I already mentioned wasn’t good anyway.


Angelika Hala: I can second or add to what Andrea said which is really maybe one of the most important thing is how international we have gotten in sourcing photography. I gotta say the most recent change was through the pandemic and when all the photo events suddenly, by sheer necessity, you have to go online and now they stay online. That means major portfolio reviews that used to be in person, or visits to Perpignan where you actually photographer would take a life savings to go and visit, right. And now it is something where I can actually meet with photographers all over the world in a portfolio review. It opens the door for new talent, old and young people who are exquisite in their photography, we can only see now that we have that access through our modern computer screens.


David Campbell: So, this is the upside of kind of the pursuit, the rightful pursuit of diversity and difference and so on. But the photography industry, has had something of a reckoning in terms of the me too to scandals and issues within the industry itself. And in terms of diversity. How do you think about those issues? And what do you think, is the role that the photo editor plays in either addressing those or trying to deal with them in particular ways? Andreas?


Andreas Trampe: I think, yeah, if you see this Me Too scandal, for example, it’s a structural problem behind, it’s always a problem that mostly, let’s say mostly, older men are working or in contact with the younger woman very often. And that makes a structural problem behind it. And I think it’s not only a question of the movie industry, and let’s say in Los Angeles, or so, it’s always the problem, when there is such a difference in power statues between editors who give assignments or give assignments to young photographers, male or female, doesn’t matter. But and the young photographers, they have to be polite, and they have to be, yeah, they are the ones who want to have this assignment and so. And some of the people, especially some of them, then especially some of the older men, they cross a frontier, which is unacceptable to cross it, anyway. So, it’s really a problem. And I think the only thing to work with that or to deal with it is to talk very often about things like that, which is not so easy because of the subject, of course. But I don’t know another way to handle things like that in a way. So, and you have to be very, very careful also, as a picture editor, let’s say as a male picture editor, my age, when you make a portfolio review, Perpignan, for example, and we rented an Airbnb in Perpignan, so that these young women who joined us, for example, doesn’t feel uncomfortable. So, it’s, we have to take care of that, at that time when they join us in the apartment, that Angelika for example, is also in the apartment, because just that they feel from the first second secure and comfortable in a way. But we have to have these details in our minds, even if, let’s say even strange for a normal picture who are really not interested in young woman, for example. Yeah, but that’s the way it is. So, I think it’s, yeah, we have to be very careful about what we are saying and what we are doing and what we are, how we are acting.




Angelika Hala: I’m sorry, David.


Angelika Hala: I thought it fair to say when I started that pretty much say 80% of the photographers that I grew up with were male and of them another 80% were white. The contract photographers at Stern, they were mostly male, we have we had one woman and that was pretty much representative of the industry. So, meaning if you had a full time job, you were mostly a man and you were white, and you had that job for a long time. And I think a lot of the power structures that bred this kind of uncomfortable and at times illegal activity, harassment that happened, was almost made by the construction of this entire industry, and I feel through the MeToo, and the Black Lives Matter movement, we see now groups that have Women’s Photograph, Diversified, two on top of my head, many more organizations now, where photographers join forces and say, Okay, we want to make sure that people see the female photographers out there, photographers of color photographers from different nationalities and ethnic backgrounds. And my big hope is that this is just how things grow organically. It will be not, I think we, as long as we think we need to assign a female photographer, or we need to assign a photographer of color or anything, as long as this is still in the foreground, we are not relaxed about just assigning because of the portfolio. Once all of that dissipates because it’s a more mixed group. So, what we are seeing now is absolutely necessary to bring these people in the foreground and we see a more mixed and diverse group of photographers and photo editors, because on the photo editing side, a lot of the people who work there were female and I saw that in my job. So, it’s another aspect that I had. So, I think it is an organic kind of thing that over a generation or two, it’s unfortunate, it takes some time, but it will just balance out. And we’ll get used to just assigning a photographer and we don’t ask anymore, what the background is.


David Campbell: Go, go on.


David Campbell: Organic, but also responding to kind of the struggle in our social efforts of those groups that you identify.


Angelika Hala: That’s the first step. An absolutely necessary step.


David Campbell: Finally, from me, I just would like to get you both to think about it’s an obvious question, but how do you think about the role of the visual and the photograph in storytelling? How do you characterize the function of the visual when you’re putting a story together? Presumably, it’s more than just illustration. But what’s the way that you conceptualize that?


Angelika Hala: I think it’s an international language. Anything that is in Stern is in German, so you need to speak German to understand it. When you have a photo feature our intent is to have a narrative that is understood without having to have a lot of catchy information or a whole article to run with it. I know that video was supposed to— what was it? Some kind of “Killed the Radio Star” thing where video was supposed to kill the photography star too and it hasn’t happened, right. And I see photographers who do both. And there is a need for video, stories told through video, but I think photography is not replaced at all, and not replaceable. I think it is important and iconic. We’re still talking about iconic images. And when we think of anything. Let’s say you know, unfortunately, when you think of something like Ukraine, or you think of any kind of, or now the destruction by Hurricane Ian or any other bigger catastrophe that we see, we remember an image more than we will remember a video or an article. And I’m sure this is not gonna change.


Andreas Trampe: So, I think the main point is that photography is transporting emotions or can transport emotions. And it can transport emotions much, much, much faster than any text of course. On the other hand, a good text is also a great experience for every reader, and you will keep it in your mind. But photography is in our busy busy world, which we all love this small bits and pieces on our mobile phones at the bus station, on the underground or when you have to wait two minutes somewhere. Today, you’re looking to your mobile device and checking your Insta or checking out your favorite web page or so and it makes it very, very fast and gives a strong impact. So, it’s international as Angelika already mentioned, but it’s also for our German readers. It’s also a national point of view is important because the most people that say in the US who are living in nearby New York, they don’t get an idea of what Hurricane Ian has destroyed there. And so, it’s very, very fast to to see that on photos and pictures. And I think, yeah, that that will last of course. So, pictures are for us, for Stern, amazing pictures are extremely important.


David Campbell: Well, speaking of pictures, it’s time to see some. We’ve asked, so each of you are going to show a story that you’ve worked on to illustrate kind of how you approach a story, how you think about the editing process and share it with us. Angelika, do you want to go first?


Angelika Hala: Sure, I can. What I want to show is an example on of how I source photography. So, some of it is active and some of it is, it’s all active, but some of it comes to me. I’m not going out and get it. So, I don’t know. And I think I don’t know what I’m gonna get in any given moment. Okay, I might browse through some of the big publications that are so fantastic at bringing photography to us, which Stern is one, but I certainly go to other sources to find photography. And then we have the portfolio reviews when photographers show us their work. And I can only emphasize how humbling it is to see so many photographers out there who go on their own and research, put all the effort in to ask a question, and then find an answer and say this is a story I want to tell. And then they start doing it and not really caring at that point if this is a story they need to tell because there is a recipient at one point, but it’s just that necessity for them to do it. So, in one of the portfolio reviews, a photographer, Jack Sorokin, came and showed me a feature that he shot. And after 30 years in the United States, I did not know that there was a very active and great rodeo circuit in North Carolina on the east coast of the United States. So, this is not in the desert, not where the cactuses grow. And you know that people wear cowboy boots and cowboy hats. This is actually in a stage here where you don’t necessarily think of this kind of sport or this kind of event or tradition. So, he came to me, and she showed me his portfolio, The Rodeo Boys. I hope you can see. He was fascinated. He lives in the area and went on the weekends that goes over the course of a few months, every summer, every weekend or rodeo. So, these are people who do all kinds of regular jobs, go to school, and on weekends stay gather and ride bulls and wild horses. And he noticed how much of an expression of masculinity this whole tradition is. And he started photographing to show the manliness of this sport and I just want to show the pictures. It was just really, really beautiful. He has a great eye, great light. The intimacy that he creates, you do not see him in the pictures. You really, you can completely concentrate. And I think there’s already a story here. It’s a small, it’s a really, it’s like a microcosm. But this is the world he encountered. He has been working on this off and on for a couple of years. But what you see mostly is more recent photography from the past two years. So, we are looking at it and I have pitched rodeo to Stern several times and I got pretty much every time blown off. So, I was getting sadder and sadder when I saw that portfolio and thought I can give it a try, but they don’t care. It’s not a hurricane. And I see this girl standing here. I hope you can see her. And I’m telling him, well, I’ve tried to get a story done on female bull riders. I know they’re out there. And there really are. Is she a rider visit? Yeah, she just started. She’s a 17-year-old girl. She wants to be a real big rodeo rider. And I said, that’s an aspect we can bring in. He photographed her, she just appeared in that one event. So, he had her. So, I pitched the story— turning that off or a second. I pitched a story to our reporter, and he loved it. He went for weekend with the photographer and came back and said, I definitely want to do that. And together, we presented the story to the foreign desk. And they said, yes, because the aspect was on the female rider. I showed them the photographs that you just saw. But we still looked at that aspect. But we only do the story if we concentrate on the woman. So, now I want to show you what turned—what the story turned out to be. Okay, this is the layout that was created. Now, Jack went and photographed for us one more weekend, concentrating on that young woman. So, we had a whole spread of photographs of her during that day and the reporter was with him. But we are back with the young men and the rodeo. Here she is. So, after three seconds riding, but three seconds, her goal is eight. So, she might eventually make it. So, that’s the layout that was created, I just want to show it one more time because I want to just give you the opportunity to look. Just so beautiful.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: That is beautiful.


Angelika Hala: So, it is not a big thing. It’s not a life-changing event. It’s just a glimpse of a culture and a group of people that we wouldn’t normally, even as tourists traveling through the United States, not necessarily see. So, it felt that for a German readership, this is a story where they can, rather, while they’re flipping through the magazine, they read a little bit about the background. But mostly, as you saw, that layout didn’t have much text. It’s mostly photography and you don’t need a text already. It doesn’t matter whether the story is about the young girl, right? In the end, it is about that whole culture that you see and what you experience. So, for me, this is a representative example on how we get a lot of our features at the moment that we are not producing from the start because it’s a news event. Andreas is going to talk about that more, but this is what I often bring home to Stern and say this is what I found. This is what we bring home when we go to places like Perpignan or when we do portfolio reviews, or what photographers bring to us when they just think of us as Stern and say, Well, I would like to show my work. And something like that can become a production. Sometimes we just buy the entire feature and produce a story with it or interview the photographer and have a, just a report on the photographers, and others we reproduce together with a reporter. So that’s my example of work that I wanted to share with everyone.


David Campbell: Right. Thank you. Andreas.


Andreas Trampe: Okay, just to try to share this now. I don’t know if you can see it or not.


David Campbell: Fifteenth of July 2021.


Andreas Trampe: It’s starting all or, what I think, good photojournalism started normally also with a good idea. Yeah. So, you have to have a good idea what you wanted, what kind of story you want to tell, and how can you catch the readers and get their attention. If you see this one here, for example. This was current last year; you see the 15th of July 21. We have this enormous flooding in Germany. Yeah, we have heavy rainfalls, and we have 180 dead people. And especially in the western part of Germany. So, in this case, storytelling is very easy. Yeah. You have to select the best pictures in a way to give the reader an idea what happened there and how it looks. Yeah, like this. And it’s a little bit like Hurricane Ian right now. So, in the first weeks, on the first days after the, after the drama took place, you have to show what’s going on and how does it look. So, that’s all which she has from her bar right now. And you see these immense destructions of houses and infrastructure. And the people start, yeah, start to live again and to make things better. And so, and then we have also, sometimes, where we think about what can we do with pictures and texts? So, the headline I translated for you means The Shadow Man Goes to the Light. Yeah. So, that’s the headline. So, the second picture we choose for that is that one, for example. Yeah, so what we always need, what I would like to point out, is a good idea. And I’ll give you another example. So, this is a very easy example in a way. So, we had we had this this—in Germany, because there was a 96-year-old secretary from a concentration camp and in Stutthof in Poland. And she stood in front of the judge and said, I didn’t saw it. Yeah, so I worked there for three years, I was the right hand of the of the boss, but I didn’t notice that. And then we said that’s not possible. In a way that’s not imaginable. And I send a photographer to her former workspace, and this is the view from her window during her work. And you can see that you look to the barracks for example of these concentration camps. And so, this is also an idea. I give you another idea. So, when we have this this big flooding in Germany we promised our readers and we promised the people there that we won’t go, we won’t cover the current news and then go ahead to other catastrophes, other places and forget these people, we said we will come back and we will look how it develops and if they get, got help or not, or if they’re stuck in their mess there. So, and then I thought about, so three months later, my editor-in-chief said he wants to have an idea, a report from the same area. How does it look today there and what changed and what not. So, I took a very, very easy, an easy way to pay for storytelling, because I hired the same photographers as the ones I hired before three months before and I said to them, okay, go back to these places which you photographed in July and do the same picture with the same lens from same angle, exactly the same, not 10 meters away from the former spot. No, exactly. The same spot, the same way. And then they said okay, but maybe sometimes we can’t do it because all the trash, all this. It’s gone. It’s yeah, so I say okay, you are creative, you will find a solution. And they found. So, this is now a story. And you see it here it was a title of Stern, a cover story. And from July and they lost the house. What’s behind them is the former house. Yeah, which is totally destroyed. And so, the photographer did another shoot, and this is three months later on the seventh of October. And you see it on the first or the first few, as you think that’s two totally different pictures. But see here, the wine yard here and the trees over in the back. Yeah, you can see like that. And this is the same wine yard here and the same house, the same situation. Easier to see, is it like that.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Wow, impressive.


Andreas Trampe: So, are like that. So, it’s a wine cellar. And he loses all this 300-year-old winery and he lose everything. And after three months, it’s clean, it’s empty, but it is the same. So, not possible to do any business there. That’s what I mean. Yeah. So, and then we have this landmark here with the, with this, with this white castle there and the hill. And you see here, on the left-hand side, on the left picture, there’s a full camping place, camping site, which is, which was flooded and stuck there in the bridge. And three months later, yeah. You can see it yourself. So, and then we have these folks on the left-hand side. They are the owners of the shop behind them. And so, at the moment we photographed them in July, 18th of July, 21, they were totally exhausted, totally exhausted. So, they run nearby the water, a service point where you can get some food and something to drink for the people. And on the right-hand side, it’s three months later. Still a little bit more positive.


Andreas Trampe: Already at that time. And then you see there. Then you, on the left-hand side, you see this bridge, and on the right hand side, the same bridge. And you can see that we fucked it up. It’s not the same angle. It’s not the same. It’s not the same picture from the left. So, you know, things like that happened. I was very, very, very frustrated about that. And then we have, this is a hospital on the left-hand side. So, this is an MRT, they cost about 10 million euros. It was two weeks old when the flood came. And it’s totally destroyed. The whole. So, it’s— yeah. Yeah, this is an example for storytelling which I would like to tell because I think it’s sometimes it always starts within with an idea. For example, this is one of another. This was a picture which was on social media. Yeah, during the elections last year. And so this is the politicians from Die Grünen,  the German, the Green Party and FTP. So, they talked about, discussed about, how can we go together and make a government and this picture was published all over the— it’s a selfie. And they published it all over on Instagram, and every web page and every TV show everywhere, but was the only picture. Yeah, so this was the only picture which we had. So, we try to give a new approach with these hands of this lady holding the smartphone. And this is a montage. This is not the real picture, of course, but this is a montage. So, you have always find— this one’s a good one I think. We are talking about a toilet paper. And we made a reportage about the making of toilet paper because Germans are storing during this pandemic. The grown-up Germans are storing toilet paper as, like it is. Yeah. So.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah.


David Campbell: Like it was gold.


Andreas Trampe: Yeah, it was sold out all over the country. And we really, we were joking about because the case, we said the French ones, there are storing red wine. The Germans, toilet paper. So, we need to, we made this reportage. But as you can see, on the left-hand side, you have this huge paper roll from which they make the toilet paper. But you can’t identify it as toilet paper. Of course, not because it’s too big. So, we found the way that we just add normal daily situation, toilet roll on the right-hand side, make it clear. So, that’s what I mean is you have to work on layouts, and you have to work on ideas. And you have to think about very carefully how we can transport content. Yeah, so that’s also entertainment. It’s funny, but it’s also interesting and sometimes also emotional in a way to get the attention of the readers.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: So, is that always your role to think of these ideas or do photographers sometimes come in with these kinds of ideas?


Andreas Trampe: Both. So, photographers with good ideas or good proposals or projects are very, very warm, warm welcome, of course, because the photographers are the ones who are on the street photographers are the ones who are seeing weird or scary, or bizarre situations or interesting stories which they are witnessing. And we are, as Angelika mentioned, we are sitting in front of our screens the whole day. There’s also some interesting but it’s not real life, real life is outside on the street, where life is to talk to other people, to visit the offices and factories and demonstrations and so on and so on. That’s life. That’s real life. We need photographers urgently to get new ideas in the magazine and to find new stories, interesting stories, of course. And so, yeah.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: I think I think it’s kind of usually the people who are watching the VII Insider, are, of course curious themselves, what kind of stories you are looking for. Angelika, maybe you can talk about that a little bit. Like what kind of stories match Stern in general. So, then people know what to pitch to you after watching this episode.


Angelika Hala: First of all, the photography has to be exceptional. It needs to be quality-wise, really, really well done. The second part is that you have a reason why you photograph that. If I get a portfolio where there’s no clear narrative, I wouldn’t really know what to do with, how to pitch it to Stern. It somehow, I need to recognize a narrative. And that can be even in a portrait series, if you decide to photograph a group of people. Let’s say we want to do a series of activists and we had a story like that in Stern with young South American activists, environmental activists and the photographer decided to have these portraits done in the environment. They are lying on a green or behind the green background, a kind of vegetation. So, the frame, the entire frame of the of the image was filled with that vegetation and the person in the center of those vertical images. So, that was, that would have been a narrative just by the style the photographer chose. So, when I say narrative, I don’t mean just a story told. It’s with the rodeo story, it is not a chronological order, it is more about a glimpse into a culture that we would otherwise not get to see. Other than that content-wise, I think it can come from all over the place, but it should be something that, I want to say everything that should be transportable to a German reader, but that’s not true either. Isn’t allowed here. Because in the end, why would a German reader care about the rodeo people or the young South American activists or, you know, rhinos in Africa that are the two last female rhinos that need to be rescued or to try to breed? It is because the story is it touches you. It interests you. It educates you on. But mostly there is what Andreas said earlier, you make an emotional connection. You are moved. If you get bored as a photo editor after two, three images, or you wonder why I am looking at this, there is not much you can tuck into that story anymore. So, I am the first person to be the reader of the images that I’m being shown. So, I want to see something that touches me right away. So, in terms of selection, it can be anything from a child that struggles with a terminal illness. And the story of this child in the family being told. We had a story on a severely obese young man who went into treatment and his family all struggling together. And you had like cheerleaders in Texas that were dealing with gender are with Me Too issues. So, would I be able to tell you I’m looking for a Me-Too story unless there was an actual event? Yes. But other than that, I think everything, all in everything. So, I’d rather a photographer come and doesn’t do an edit in his head or in her head and say, I can’t bring that because that’s not what Stern publishes. No, you want to bring it because for one, I get to know you, I get to see a body of work. Even if it’s not for the magazine at this point and time, then at least I have you on my, on my radar. And we have a connection. And then maybe your next story is going to be something, or I have an assignment that I need somebody in a small town in Texas, where you are based. Yeah, oh, everything and everyone. I wouldn’t, at least for me here in the United States, I wouldn’t want to have anyone not show me the work. And I’m open. Really, I have an open door to anyone who wants to bring me work.


Andreas Trampe: Yep, we have an open door. And we look at a lot of work. But very often, we are really fast in our decision that we say no, we don’t want it. There are millions and billions of reasons behind. A normal photographer would never find out why we don’t want her or his story. That can be we just printed such a story a year before. Or we printed such a story, a similar story, or we have it in our desk already to print. It’s not printed. It’s not published. But it’s a similar story, or we just honestly found it pretty boring. Yeah.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Also, a good reasons.


Andreas Trampe: Some, sometimes it’s hard to tell photographers like this, that I’m really not interested on the story. Because and then we have we have 190 countries in the world. And Stern has about 52 issues a year. So, how often do I have the chance to run a story from let’s say, Ecuador?  So, if I choose the story from Ecuador, what can be the the reason for it? So, on the one hand side, we are asking for relevance. So, is it relevant? Because in the next two years, we won’t come back to Ecuador again. Yeah. So. So it has to be a relevant story on the one hand side on the other hand side, if it’s an emotional story, and a surprising story, that makes it easier, and everybody knows from us in the world how much we love surprises. When you sit down with a with your friend in a cafe or a restaurant in the evening and he or she tells you a story and the story has surprising aspect is, oh, no, I didn’t know that. Yes, it’s really fucking interesting. Yeah. And it’s a good story. Yeah. So, that’s the stories we are looking for. And the story has to be a story and not only an event, so very—


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: What do you mean by that?


Andreas Trampe: We get a bunch of pictures on our on our desk. And it shows a situation somewhere. Yeah, so we got a situation let’s make it so that we don’t talk about spot news. And we talk about refugees from Ukraine and Lviv during the beginning of the war. So, in the in the first five, let’s say three, four weeks. It’s news. It’s interesting that refugees from Lviv or from the other parts of Ukraine are stranded in Lviv, and we are printing these pictures because it’s news or related to the news. But three months later, the story is told. The story is over reported, and everybody knows that there are a lot of refugees from Ukraine and Lviv. So, you have to find another way to tell the story. Maybe it’s a personal interview with one of these mothers. Maybe it’s a portrait of two friends, girlfriends who tries to go out with their children. I don’t know. But it has to be another way and a story a real story, yeah, with a red line in it and not only is situational pictures in a way, and we have that very often. For example, see, I give you an example, see all these poor refugees who tries to cross the Mediterranean in rubber boots. So, that started in 2014. That is eight years old. And for these people, I don’t want that you think I’m arrogant. So, for these people, for these poor people from Africa, this is the story of their life. Yeah. So, this is one of the most exciting and important moments, because it’s really about to survive. But for our readers before the television viewers, and we know the story for years now, for eight years. So, you can’t tell always the same story of these people in the rubber boats. You have, you have to find another angle, you have to find a real story. The story could be perhaps a sailor on one of these open arm ships or so and he or she is writing a diary, for example. Yeah. So, it has to be a personal story, or a story which is different from all the other stories, which are told before,


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: So, do you sometimes advise this as well, to the photographers who are pitching in, or do you then write back and say, sorry, this is not for us.


Andreas Trampe: Sometimes when I find the time. I don’t find the time every time. So, I get really a lot of proposals and ideas. I really try to answer every mail. But sometimes very briefly, because I don’t have the time to, yeah, to make it so detailed in a way, to give themselves a detailed answer. But that is also a problem sometimes that it is in news stories. And magazines and newspapers are like junkies, they always need new stuff. New news, news. Yeah, we need that. And the readers, they want it, they ask for it, they pay for it. And so that’s the way it is. And so, I think—


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: But I think you’re also the gatekeeper, I mean, in a way to— not the gatekeeper, not the right word, but you have to make sure that the stories you bring are of course, not too mainstream, but I can imagine, I don’t know how many stories you get from photographers, but I know how many times I’ve sent stories. Luckily, many of them were also published, but I can imagine there’s an overload. So, could you maybe explain how you, besides the subject, how would you like to see a pitch coming in? Because you get tons of emails. What are your favorite ways of receiving a pitch? Is it a PDF? Is it a WeTransfer link? Is it just the very basics of what you would like to see, or maybe Angelika.


Angellika Hala: I think the good presentation is, depending, it doesn’t really matter whether you’re already introduced or not. I think the best is a PDF with a short text into an amine, a short, not one page, Word document or so a paragraph, maybe two and the images. If you do a portfolio of 15 images with brief captions under each image doesn’t take much work to do that. If you have and I want to give you an example. I click it, I click it open, I fly through it. And as I said, our eyes are very experienced. And we also know what we have seen in terms of—and our memory is also there. So, we know what we have had already. If it reminds us of something, or that we have seen recently or we know it is a presentation that’s not quite the right quality, then we can edit it very quickly and give answer very quickly. If I need to download it, download a WeTransfer and then click all the images open it is two or three work steps. So, if you are a photographer and you think of a presentation think about how it can go on a smartphone or desktop in one or two steps that the person who receives your email pitch quickly, contact information in there, website if it’s relevant, or Instagram information, that everything that is your business card should be attached with that presentation. That’s my preferred way of receiving pitches.


Andreas Trampe: Yeah, I agree. The PDF is really mostly the first step and if you sent or if the photographer had sent me 15 pictures and a one page or half page of text— half page is better than the one page of course. And these pictures are fine, and I’m interested in the story, I will get immediately back to the photographer, can I see more? And do you have more detailed information? Like, let’s say it’s an appetizer. So, give me an appetizer. What is the core of your story? And what is the most? And the photographers very often, they have the problem. They want to show it all because then they said, yes, I don’t know what you’re interested in. Yeah. And I don’t know which angle you’re interested in. So, I sent you the angle from the left-hand side, and also the from the right-hand side and add some pictures from the from the center. And then we I have picked 50 pictures on my desk. So yeah.  So, this is the best, the PDF is really the best. And you can be sure if I’m really really interested in a story, which attracts me, um, sometimes really fast.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: You are, I’ve seen that happen. Happened in Perpignan, where I opened my laptop and I showed you a story. It’s years ago about dementia care in the Netherlands. You immediately said okay, yes, yes. Can we see more? Okay, great. Yes, I want it. Have you shown it anywhere else? Okay, no, I haven’t. Okay, then please don’t and you knew it right away. And that’s always nice. Also, as a photographer, of course, to experience that like, bom, bom bom.


Andreas Trampe: It’s very easy, and yeah. So, in this case, for example, it’s also the case that Germany and the Netherlands are very, very next to each other. So, the situation with all people in the Netherlands is nearly the same as situations for people in Germany. So, the transfer of content to German readers is very short and very, very—


David Campbell: Very fast.


Andreas Trampe: So, we will come back, we will go back and forth. Another example. I watched the program of Visa pour l’Image this year in Perpignan and I look to the exhibitions. And there was one exhibition I said, oh, that looks that sounds really interesting. Yeah, sounds really interesting. So, I write the photographer, an American, and I say to her, Can I see the pictures before Perpignon? Because it sounds so interesting what you’re showing there. She said, yes, of course. No problem. Well, send it over and she sent it over. So, I bought it before the Visa started. Because you know it from just from the headline, you know it from just that that’s possible and the reportage, which is interesting for us. And yeah.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: So, should photographers be worried if they haven’t met you in real life? Because that’s a question I get a lot when I’m teaching workshops, they asked me well, if they don’t know me, these editors, will they even look at my work? Or is it better for me to go to a portfolio review in Perpignan or in Arles, or somewhere else online? Do you feel that really helps, those photo festivals or it’s fine if they email you without any other connection?


Angelika Hala: I think the photo festivals are as important to the photographers as they are for us. It’s, for one, it is in person. For one, you’re with a large group of professionals, of people who are as passionate about photography as you are, as a photographer, or as an editor. So, there is just being in an environment where you can discuss professionally and show work, get feedback even from your peers is invaluable. Can somebody pitch without being introduced? Of course. You make sure that your introduction, even the ref, you know, the title of the email, just says just start a pitch or something you want to do and headline it and think about a good headline that you can put in, so it entices people to pitch and to look. So, one doesn’t exclude the other. I feel both are there. I found, and I asked photographers, because some of the portfolio reviews are quite expensive for photographers. Even if they’re online amused for some charge you money. I talked with a photographer about it or several and they said it is my opportunity to get editors’ eyes on my work. Because I tried to do what Andreas said. I tried to answer every email I tried to get back to people, I try to follow up after reviews as much as I can. As we have our everyday work and sometimes it’s just not possible or it will take some time until we can. When you go to one of these events, even the paid events, you have the opportunity to see several editors that you might not be able to get an audience with. And who might not click your email open, not because they’re bad people, but because they just don’t have the bandwidth. As I said, when we started the conversation, I need to source everything, myself. So, I do all the research, hours of research for just one small image. And that’s the time that I don’t have to spend with photographers. In an ideal world, I would just meet with photographers and look at work and go out and be among and that’s what my ideal work would be. I wouldn’t want to research on archives, like Getty or Redux or wherever. It’s not fun. And I rather would speak with a photo researcher somewhere at an agency and discuss what could we do, because this is what Andrea said with his presentation. The talking with each other, the exchange with each other that brings the ideas and that’s why we have great layouts, or we have translation into an image. Because I come to you and say I need a particular image. And then you’re on your own. I’m not there with you. I can’t hold your hand. And maybe you’ve got to even be honest and say I can’t get you that in situations. So, I think if photographers come to you and ask you that, tell them to do both. And take a risk. Be the shotgun approach with your portfolio, shoot it out as much and to as many. If you meet, if you know somebody in person, keep these people up to date. I’ve had happy faces beam at me three years after I met them the first time and said oh, we met in so and so. And I’m thinking oh, God, Oh, God. Of course, that person in three years has not once sent me, here’s new work. This is what I’ve been doing. I am showing you.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: That’s truly, truly very important. Yeah. And I think many of us, let’s say us photographers are not doing that. Maybe also out of the feeling that they don’t want to bother you knowing that you are already very busy. I think there’s some modesty in that as well. But it’s maybe not very smart.


Andreas Trampe: But it’s their job to bother us.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, that’s true. I hope everyone is listening.


Andreas Trampe: It’s also their job to bother somebody to be photographed. Yeah, or to help them out with information. So, we are journalists, are always bothering other people and trying to get information to try to get actually from them, try to get access, try to get, we’re always on this. That’s our normal job. And—


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: But I know, mostly from well, also, from my own experience from years ago, I think I kind of changed my approach in the last 10 years, 15 years. But I know it from teaching that a lot of people well, you’ve seen it probably at when you’re reviewing that a lot of photographers are almost kind of shy to show work sometimes. It’s a whole category of yeah, I see you both nodding. And I think it’s quite a steep hill, some people are climbing like showing the work and trusting that it’s good enough before they show it to someone it’s—


Andreas Trampe: And we can always and also see that these people are shy when you sometimes look to their photography. And you find out that their whole their whole portfolio is photographed, let’s say from four to eight meters with a 35mm lens. Yes, it’s true. And so, there are also they don’t want to enter the comfort zone of the protagonist. Yeah, they are too shy and too polite. That’s good to be polite in this is important in life. As a reporter, or as a photographer, as a journalist, you want to get information and this information can help. You want to get emotions, you want to get immediacy, you want to get content, so it’s not so easy for them if they are too shy.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: That’s true. Yeah, no, I see that a lot. And yeah.


Andreas Trampe: One sentence, one more sentence Ilvy because you asked about do we have to know the photographer? So, if we have really big, important relevant assignment, it’s better to know the photographer. Because in that moment, the photographer is ringing on the door and said, Hello, I’m Ilvy, I’m from Stern magazine, I should photograph you today. And yeah. So, in that moment, the photographer who is a freelancer is one of our members of the editorial staff, so and it’s, of course, it’s easier when he or she knows the editors and knows the behavior and knows the to-dos and not-to-dos. And how, yeah, and how to get access to people also. But on the other hand, it’s not. It’s not every time possible. So, for example, I assigned now two photographers in Ukraine, over the last month, and brilliant photographers, never known them before. I’ve never known them before.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Ukrainians?


Andreas Trampe: No. One is an American. And the other one is Chech. I did work with them together. And it turns out very, very well and very, very good. And they know immediately, they know what I want. And after a phone call of 30 minutes, we’re on the same level in a way. Yeah. And that’s also an example for it’s not absolutely necessary to be known in person to the editor. But it helps, of course. We are on so many photo festivals and so many portfolio reviews, like Perpignan, like Arles, like Cortona On The Move or Hamburg Portfolio Review, or New York Portfolio Review. So, there are so many of us out there. So, it’s normally, it should be possible to get in touch with somebody.


Andreas Trampe: Yeah, I’m very specific. I’m not sure about the status of the cannabis regulation right now. So right now, it’s forbidden in Germany. But it’s allowed for medicine reasons, right now. I know that we have some organizations who try to invest money in this and for harvesting cannabis after a period. It’s an interesting story in a way because it’s an— on the other hand, it’s I think we discussing 20 years about it. Yeah. It’s a little bit different from the Netherlands where you’re living. Yeah, we’re discussing this. Is it? Is it necessary? Is it good for people? Does it make sense? Or will we have at the end, more drug addicts, more drugs, crime as as now? So, it’s an endless discussion, so it would be interesting to find a new angle.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: To find one of you in real life. I’m quickly gonna go to the q&a. There are three questions in there. One of them is what kind of photography would you like to see? It’s a question to you, Andreas. Mainly, it’s about Germany, I guess. What kind of photography would you like to see regarding the story of the ongoing legalization process, or recreational cannabis in Germany? I’m an aspiring documentary photographer who would like to cover this story. It’s a question from Rafael Data.


David Campbell: This, Andreas, this is a good example of what you were talking about earlier, which I think was an excellent point. There’s a difference between a collection of photographs of an event, a topic and a story. And Rafael’s got a topic, legalization of cannabis. But what’s the story? So, perhaps the advice to Rafael is find the story actually on this because you’ve got the general area, you’ve got the topic.


Andreas Trampe: Yeah, that’s not so easy. I think for Rafael to find a really good approach to the story. But it makes sense to get a sheet of paper and to think about the headline, because that’s what I’ve always, very often tell photographers. Make yourself a storyboard in a way. Yeah. So, what is this? What is the real story? So, legalization of cannabis in Germany. Okay, this is not a headline. This is more of a documentary book title in a way. Yeah. So, what is the headline of the story and what kind of puzzle pieces photo pieces you need at the end to tell the story? So, and when you start with that before, it really saves money and time, because you won’t end up with a bunch of pictures which are always, let’s say positive, good photographs, but there’s no connection between the parts of these pictures or no story behind it. So, yeah, it’s not so easy. And this topic is not so easy, but it’s interesting. Yeah.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: And can he reach out to you when he has the idea?


Andreas Trampe: Everybody can reach out with good ideas and strong proposals at any time.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: We will share if it’s okay with you, we’ll share. I don’t know how we usually do this, David, in the chat or—


David Campbell: I’ll find a Stern email address and put that into the chat.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Okay. So, Rafael. Another question, this one from Daniel. Is it essential for photographer to send a photo reportage together with an article or not? Is it enough? Just a short text? This question is because it is very difficult to contact magazines and editors. This question—


Angelika Hala: I think a short text, I talked about a presentation. I’ll tell you what not to do. I’ve got pitches that sent me a link from the New York Times where the story is the article and photographs. And a photographer wants to know whether we are interested in this photographer to do the story. And I’m thinking you are seeing already a fully photographed article here and a story with it. So, I can license these images. So, unless you tell me I saw an interesting story on, let’s say, Rafael’s question about cannabis. So, cannabis was maybe reported somewhere in an American or German magazine. And I’m thinking how could I do it differently? So, you’re not, you don’t need to send me a full article. That doesn’t have to be already a story because the one thing we are very proud of at Stern is that we want to produce our own. Even if we license photography, we still want to have our own text. So, I am much, I’d rather have a photographer send me a brief on a story. A headline as Andreas said. A brief, like a couple of paragraphs, and then the images. That’s all I need, unless there is a text that has to be licensed with the photographs. So, sometimes there’s a cooperation between a journalist and a photojournalist, and they only can sell it as a package, then I do not need a magazine article. You can always reference that I did that story for National Geographic or for New York Times, or whatever. And there is an article published, but here is a wider edit, and I can provide you with all the contacts. So, that would be a possibility of pitching a story where an existing article already could be added.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Okay. And Heidi Alexander, kind of in the same line is asking, is it always important that the article or story has never been published in another big publication?


Andreas Trampe: No, this is not the main point. The main point is, is it already published in another publication in Germany in German language, because we are doing this job for our readers, and we try to get new stuff to our readers. So, when they have read the same story and Die Ziet or Der Spiegel in Germany three weeks ago, that then it’s out for us. We won’t do that again. If it’s published in Italy, for example, we don’t care so much because we don’t have the same readers in Italy as in Germany. So, it’s very, very easy answer to this question. I think.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: And Christiane Del Sol is asking how do you measure audience interest in stories. Do you?


Andreas Trampe: Not so easy. On a regular basis, we are doing interviews with our readers, or was selected readers, let’s say so, and try to find out what they are interested in and what they liked on written and published articles and what they don’t like so much. And this is very—but this is not so easy, because sometimes a bad headline, yeah, makes a negative approach and then they are out. They don’t want to read it, or they don’t like the first picture or they don’t like the beginning of the article is pretty boring and not so exciting. So, and of course, online, we can see that much clearer, much faster. We can see where the people come from, do they come from Google? Do they come from— are they entering the Stern webpage directly? Yeah, by typing in www Or are they coming from Google, things like that. It’s easier to find out.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, of course. I’m curious Angelika, because you said, you’re behind the computer a lot. I guess, as a photographer, I’m also spending more time behind the computer than I would like, actually. So, I know that feeling. But I’m curious when you’re editing a story for Stern, do you actually print the images? Do you print them and then kind of, or it’s, that’s also all done on computer.


Angelika Hala: I once in a while do it for layout. When I want like a presentation, if I have not done it already, I sometimes do— my initial elect selection is always on the screen, always. If have like 100 images to edit down to 20, I would do that. And then I stay usually with the screen. But if I have to, if I’m torn among a few images, or even sometimes just two, I sometimes actually print them out because it is a different, different thing. And we’ve gotten used to it. It would be a very big waste of paper. But I recommend still to photographers, because we are editors. So, it’s our job. And we’ve done it for many years, our eyes schooled in a certain way. And I think, because I’ve worked for Stern and the other publications, I got, I have developed a particular look at images because I’m always thinking in the layout instead of just a series of images. I’m always thinking of how that could work in the magazine pages. For a photographer to get a good sequence, I often think to bring out and lay them in front of you eight by 10 at least but better if you even can do larger ones and walk and see what you do. That’s what we often do when there’s juries, that you do an edit like that. But my everyday work is mostly on screen.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Yeah, it’s funny for me, I do mostly on screen as well, actually all, but I’m an ambassador with Canon, and sometimes they print my work. And you’re right, it gives a totally different feeling. And you somehow look at the images differently. Some things all of a sudden become clearer to you or you see something in the background that I even hadn’t seen before on the screen. It’s a different feeling. But—


Andreas Trampe: I’m editing also everything on digital on screen. Yeah, it’s much faster. Yes, of course. And I think it’s a question of training, as well. I remember last time when we, we really, really printed out not everything, but let’s say I think it was about 300 pictures as double spreads. So, in a big size, when we had this G-20 summit in Hamburg, which was totally out of control in 2017. So, my colleague and me said, okay, let’s present some pictures. And so, we enter the big conference room in Stern in the office building. And the walls and floor were completely covered. All chairs, the whole conference, it was huge. So, and then we call the editors-in-chief and said, may we show you some pictures. They came down to the conference room, and they were really shocked. Really, it was a shock for them. And then our main goal was if we can get 6 double spreads more for the coverage. At the end we got it.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Good work. Because it does give a different feeling.


Andreas Trampe: But it was really impressive.


David Campbell: So, I think we’re coming towards the end of our time. And we’ve got three final questions which actually I’ll run together as one question because these are from Heidi, Titus and Juan. So, they’ve each got particular topics to see whether you’re interested in this topic. Okay. So, would you like to see stories on A. indigenous group current crisis, B. the transgender community and Cuba and or C. lockdown stories. Do those topics interest you?


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Multiple choice. No, it isn’t multiple choice. These are three different questions.


Angelika Hala: I would have to reveal what we have already locked in for Stern, stories that are not yet published. The transgender is going to be difficult because it is a very remote place, Cuba, for German readership. And it has to be a very exceptional approach of photography to bring that to the reader. Would I look at it? Of course, I would look at it, not at all, just to also to meet the photographer. But as a subject matter, difficult. Indigenous people troubles. We’ve had several articles in Stern. Andreas can second that. I know this is a difficult sale at the moment, not because it’s not interesting, but because we’ve covered it. And Andreas mentioned that we only have so many editions every year. Even if something was published a year ago, or even a year, two years ago, it’s still close enough in time to say would we want to report something that’s very similar? And what was the third one? Because that is, yeah.


David Campbell: The final one was lock down stories. COVID related, I guess.


Angelika Hala: That’s over, I’d say.


David Campbell: Except in China.


Andreas Trampe: Well, yeah, but it’s also reported from China. So, everybody knows how it looks like when Shanghai is locked down, for example. So, and for me, again, this is not the good questions, or it’s not the real question, let’s say so. So, it won’t be the same if somebody— are you more interesting in Norway or in Sweden? I would say, I don’t know. Both may be interesting. So, LGBTQ can be interesting. Indigenous people in Brazil, for example, in Venezuela, can be interesting. But it’s not. This is not a story. This is a country. It’s a topic. And maybe you have on Cuba, a 78-year-old woman who hide her sexuality for the entire life. And now she has her coming out. And I don’t know, then we are starting with it becoming a good story. So. But so far, this is not a story. Indigenous people, for example, or lock down is very overreported, for me. So, it’s a question of a story. And a story is not only a topic.


David Campbell: I think you have phrased that so well today. And I think that’s one of the real takeaways is that distinction between photos of an event, photos of a general topic, and a story. And they’re very different things. And you have to get to the story in the pitch and so on. I think if people take away that advice, that will be really, really worthwhile. That does bring us to the end of our time. But I really want to thank both of you. It’s been absolutely fantastic having both of you at the same time. Similar perspectives, but different perspectives too. Really generous use of your time. Thank you very much for being part of this series and sharing your information and knowledge with the community.


Angelika Hala: Thank you for having us.


Andreas Trampe: Yeah, it was a great pleasure to talk to you. And as you see, very often in daily life, you don’t think about questions like these, because you’re just running in your business in a way. And so, it’s always good to have a time out to think about questions further or questions which normally is not on your, in your daily routine. So, it’s always fun. Thank you so much, David and Ilvy.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Thank you.


David Campbell: Yes, and thank you to the audience, as always.


Andreas Trampe: And thank you to the audience as well. Of course.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: I hope they reach out to you with nice pitches.


Andreas Trampe: Tell them I will be back. I’m on holidays right now.


Ilvy Njiokiktjien: Tell them right now. They’re listening.


Andreas Trampe: I will be back in the middle of November in the office so if they don’t get an answer. They know now why.


David Campbell: Small delay. Thanks Andreas. Thanks, Angelika. Bye bye.


Angelika Hala: Thank you. Bye bye.

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